Current Project: Mystic TaxiStatus: Page 328
My online critique group "meets" the first and fifteenth of every month. We meet via email, and the meeting consists of submitting chapters of our WIPs to each other. Most of us have been in this group for a long time, like over ten years, though we just brought a couple of excellent writers onboard to freshen things up. It's been great. Their stuff is fantastic!
One of the ongoing problems I have with my group is when someone says "...you need to remind us about thus and so. And you need to explain XYZ." Over the years, these suggestions have caused me to take on the bad habit of repeating myself more often than necessary, and over-explaining. My crit partners mean well, but what happens when you're submitting a novel chapter by chapter is that they forget information from something they haven't read for a while. Crit partners go on vacation, take a break from the group, or simply have swiss cheese memories. Sometimes they skip reading your stuff for months, then come back with suggestions for reminders and explanations. Ugh.
This means it's up to me to determine whether or not I should follow those suggestions. In my early writing days, I'd always follow whatever advice I was given, only to be told later by someone reading the book for the first time that I'm repeating myself and over explaining things. I'm trying to break myself of the habit, but after ten years of beating it into me, it hasn't been easy.So what I've learned to do is flag those areas remarked upon by two of my crit buddies (it's always these same two writers, the others never mention reminders or the need for repeating details) and then when I'm done with the manuscript, I can determine if repetition and extra explanation is a warranted. Fresh beta readers help with this, too.
Are you in a critique group? What do you see as the pros and cons of critique? What's the worst advice you've ever received from a critique partner?
12 comments:
This is interesting, Karen, and sounds as though it must be a very frustrating situation.
My suggestion is to ignore the two cps who want you to restate and remind them. Flag the section if you must, but you'll find the places that need a refresher when you do your rewrites. It seems to me it would be easier to add it at that time than to take it out at a later date when you may have included additional information in the retelling and will need to jump through several language hoops to clear it all up. The fact the others never ask this seems to indicate it's not your problem but theirs. And when they ask, you can always say you aren't doing that until later. I mean, can't they refresh their memories if they're that bad by revisiting former chapters you previously sent to them?
I don't belong to a group like that anymore. I used to but never on the Internet. Nowadays, my daughter reads the first chapter or two, sometimes three and then usually the completed book before submission. Of course, this ruins the finished book for her, but it's a trade off as her opinion means a lot to me. I always take seriously what she has to say but in the end, it's my book.
I love the cartoon!
Thanks, Alice! I do that now, the flagging and determining what needs reminding during revisions, but when I first started writing I didn't. That's how I acquired this bad habit. Sigh. So let that be a warning to others! LOL. Not that others need to be warned, but I would have benefited if I'd known early on to ignore such suggestions. But that's how we learn and grow as writers.
Sometimes my crit buds catch stuff that's very helpful! But I have to say that most of the time their comments aren't all that useful. For example, I use bridge scenes instead of sequels, so these mini scenes aren't especially dramatic. A couple of my critters are old school and sticklers for the Swayne formula of goal, conflict and disaster in ever scene. Sigh. To each his own.
I used to submit work to my CPs chapter by chapter like that, Karen, but have since stopped. Like you said, you run into the whole "repeating yourself over and over" phenomenon that tends to ultimately slow down a novel. It's fun when CPs are saying, "I can't wait for the next chapter!" but it's never worked for me.
I crit with a couple of people now and the best way for me is to send the proposal - first three chapters with or without a synopsis - to them at the start, just to see if I'm on the right track. If so, I go on, if not, I revise. Then I don't send more until the book is done. I'm at the point where I don't need line edits, more big picture stuff, so I'm not so worried about chapter by chapter crits anymore.
I know lots of authors who ONLY use their agent or editor. I'm not there yet. I still need a fresh eye, and like to have my CPs look at work before I send to my agent (or editor). I've found them to be invaluable and ALWAYS catch things I (and often my agent) miss that makes my book that much better.
Great post!
Karen -- You said, "Sometimes my crit buds catch stuff that's very helpful! But I have to say that most of the time their comments aren't all that useful." and "A couple of my critters are old school and sticklers for the Swayne formula of goal, conflict and disaster in ever scene. Sigh. To each his own."
It sounds like your fellow writers are approaching your work with built in prejudices. Whether the style works for your readers is the point, not that it meet some writerly bias.
I think that is why at this stage, I prefer the comments of my daughter who looks at my work as a reader. When I want writer like opinions, I get them from my editor.
Karen,
That happens a LOT at the Central Oregon Writers Guild critiques. You know how they have the critique at the end of the meeting and someone will get up and read their stuff only to have the critiquers ask questions that the write says were told in the previous chapter. That is why we are no longer having critique after meeting. People are in ongoing critique groups and we are going to have some Saturday critique workshops.
Anyway, I prefer sending out chapters for critique as they are written. 1) with the reader asking for more fast, it keeps me propelled forward and excited about the story, 2) They can flag things that need to change as I'm writing, 3) when I get to the end, I don't have to wait for someone to read the whole thing before I can dive into polishing. 4) with some reading as I go when I need to brainstorm a scene they know what has happened and can help me with valid suggestions.
I'm super excited my first and oldest CP is back on board. We start Monday sending chapters back and forth every Monday. Now that both boys are in school she can stay on a writing schedule.
But I can tell you- if you really want a whip cracking CP contact Lori! LOL She questions everything the character's do and makes me dig deeper.
I've had CP's in the past who were always saying, "I don't remember that. You should repeat." 'd just ignore it unless it felt valid.
I think even if I had an agetn or an editor, I'd still rely on my CP's. I've been using them for 10 years and I can't see writing without them.
My critters provide a variety of feedback. Some do the big picture, which is helpful for the most part, but all do line edits, and I appreciate that. I'll never be beyond the point of needing them because I miss little things all the time. I'm the reigning queen of homonymn abuse! One of the old biddies in my group is a retired English teacher, and though many of her comments are antiquated, others are spot on.
Stephen King used the phrase "writing with the door closed" meaning don't show anyone anything until the book's done. I can see the sense in that. But I also like the feedback from three truly brilliant writers in my group (there are eight of us) who help me brainstorm and identify solutions to plot problems. Their insight is phenomenal.
I have to say the crits I get are usually pretty sparse except for the reminder comments from those who've only read one chapter, like #6. Ahem. I pay close attention to the brilliant critters who have won my respect. But to get their comments, I have to receive something from everyone.
Paty said:
Anyway, I prefer sending out chapters for critique as they are written. 1) with the reader asking for more fast, it keeps me propelled forward and excited about the story, 2) They can flag things that need to change as I'm writing, 3) when I get to the end, I don't have to wait for someone to read the whole thing before I can dive into polishing. 4) with some reading as I go when I need to brainstorm a scene they know what has happened and can help me with valid suggestions.
I concur with all these points, Paty. Same with me, though not so much #1 because I'm usually about 10 chapters ahead of whatever they're critting. But it helps to brainstorm problem issues with those familiar with the story and characters. You speak the same language. And then at the end, you can go through the whole manuscript with the critters notes in hand. I rarely if ever make their suggested changes to the ms until I'm ready to revise anyway, unless it has some affect on the plot, which it never does.
Interesting points! I have a couple critique partners who spot different things in my stories, which I really appreciate. And I so much appreciate that "fresh eyes" look.
I get so involved in the story that I know what I meant, but it's not always clear to a reader. Or I get lazy and don't dig as deeply as I should. So even a "this doesn't make sense" or "please clarify" comment is helpful to me.
I do like to write mostly "behind closed doors," so my critique partners don't see the manuscript until I've gone through all but the last couple of edits, so they usually get big chunks at once.
Always interesting to hear the experiences of others with critiques!
Neat post, Karen!
Right now, my primary critique partner is my mother. However, I like the idea of a regular group, but I just haven't happened upon a situation yet that works well for me. I've come to the conclusion that finding a good fit with a CP is perhaps as hard as finding a good mate . . . :)
It doesn't happen to me as often as it used to, but I know what you mean, Genene, about not digging deep enough, or maybe rushing through an event that could benefit from a little more elaboration or clarity. My crit partners point these out for me, too, and it's such a help. I never assume I have it all figured out because I obviously don't, lol!
Wavy, it's true that good crit partners are hard to find. It took me a while to settle in with the ones I have and it works well, for the most part. 8^) I obviously have some issues to deal with, but it's worth it.
I'm with Alice on this one. I have tried several different types of critique and/or workshop groups over the years, nad have developed pretty trong opinions on what works for me.
I am happy to let my first reader (one person, a reader, not another writer) read the chapters as they are written, but I *DO NOT* get any feedback until the book is done. Critiquing a work-in-process has stopped me so many times with the "I'll go fix that first" routine. Leads to rewriting and editing the same chapters several times, rather than finishing the blasted book. Sounds like you are at least dodging that bullet, just flagging the comments to follow up after the book is finished.
Because I am writing novel-length (used to short storeis, which work just fine in the proper critique setting) I no longer work with a cp at all. I have a first reader who checks for continuity errors (what happened to the cab driver in Chapte 3? Is the hero's hair black or brown?), typos, spelling and copyedits - and she's good at all of it. Beyond that, I trust my editors.
Of course I'm likely more comfortable with this routine because I am writing books that are already under contract, not on spec. But I'm still doing spec work, too, and I am treating it the same way. Find a reader who can tell me if I left threads dangling, or changed the name of the villian half-way through, then trust myself to produce a marketable manuscript.
Right now this is what works for me.
Chris York
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